Discussion:
$10 anti-competition surcharge question
Steve West
2004-10-11 08:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know if the surcharge applies if you access an alternate toll
provider via the 050 prefix?

Steve

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Steve Barr
2004-10-11 19:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Well, Telecom would have it that the $10 concerned is actually a discount to
their homeline and calling customers, rather than a surcharge aimed at
others. This sounds reasonable, and is a fairly common practice.

To answer your question though, yes, you'll lose the discount if you use
alternative toll providers - that's the whole point.

Steve




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Steve West
Sent: Monday, 11 October 2004 9:06 p.m.
To: ADSL List
Subject: $10 anti-competition surcharge question

Does anyone know if the surcharge applies if you access an alternate toll
provider via the 050 prefix?

Steve

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Claire Hurman
2004-10-11 20:19:02 UTC
Permalink
You only lose the discount if you put Direct Dial calls through someone else
- you can still code dial another toll provider.

Claire

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Steve Barr
Sent: Tuesday, 12 October 2004 8:56 a.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: RE: $10 anti-competition surcharge question


Well, Telecom would have it that the $10 concerned is actually a discount to
their homeline and calling customers, rather than a surcharge aimed at
others. This sounds reasonable, and is a fairly common practice.

To answer your question though, yes, you'll lose the discount if you use
alternative toll providers - that's the whole point.

Steve




-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Steve West
Sent: Monday, 11 October 2004 9:06 p.m.
To: ADSL List
Subject: $10 anti-competition surcharge question

Does anyone know if the surcharge applies if you access an alternate toll
provider via the 050 prefix?

Steve

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Jamie Walker
2004-10-11 23:18:48 UTC
Permalink
On 12/10/2004, at 12:11 PM, Mark Foster wrote:

> Wrong.
>
> The service applies to *direct dial* toll dialing.
>
> So any 05xx dialing shouldnt have an affect.

What I was wondering before singing up for the plans back in the day
was whether you got the discount on a toll-barred line?

Given that we seem to be being charged the discounted price at home, it
would appear so.

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Mark Foster
2004-10-11 23:32:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Jamie Walker wrote:

>
> On 12/10/2004, at 12:11 PM, Mark Foster wrote:
>
> > Wrong.
> >
> > The service applies to *direct dial* toll dialing.
> >
> > So any 05xx dialing shouldnt have an affect.
>
> What I was wondering before singing up for the plans back in the day
> was whether you got the discount on a toll-barred line?
>
> Given that we seem to be being charged the discounted price at home, it
> would appear so.

Given you can always disable or bypass the toll bar at your leisure,
that'd make sense to me.

Mark.
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Steve West
2004-10-12 00:04:31 UTC
Permalink
>> What I was wondering before singing up for the plans back in the day
>> was whether you got the discount on a toll-barred line?
>>
>> Given that we seem to be being charged the discounted price at home, it
>> would appear so.
>
> Given you can always disable or bypass the toll bar at your leisure,
> that'd make sense to me.

Can you? http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,3900,101330-202110,00.html makes
it sound slow and expensive to add or remove the bar. Or are you thinking of
the Call Restriction or CallTrack services?

Steve

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Mark Foster
2004-10-12 01:08:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Steve West wrote:

> >> What I was wondering before singing up for the plans back in the day
> >> was whether you got the discount on a toll-barred line?
> >>
> >> Given that we seem to be being charged the discounted price at home, it
> >> would appear so.
> >
> > Given you can always disable or bypass the toll bar at your leisure,
> > that'd make sense to me.
>
> Can you? http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,3900,101330-202110,00.html makes
> it sound slow and expensive to add or remove the bar. Or are you thinking of
> the Call Restriction or CallTrack services?
>
> Steve

I never said it was free :) Nor did I say it was easy - but the account
holder can obviously request its removal and/or move to a call restriction
or CallTrack service.

Point is that the Account Holder has the power, its their account..
I guess the guaruntee is in the introductory paragraph on the above
referenced url:

"Permanent Toll Bar is a service that prevents all chargeable calls from
being made from your home phone, including chargeable calls through
_alternative Network Providers_."

:)

All opinions mine only, of course.

Mark.
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LEE Tet Yoon
2004-10-12 06:08:01 UTC
Permalink
At 02:08 p.m. 12/10/2004, you wrote:


>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Steve West wrote:
>
>> >> What I was wondering before singing up for the plans back in the day
>> >> was whether you got the discount on a toll-barred line?
>> >>
>> >> Given that we seem to be being charged the discounted price at home, it
>> >> would appear so.
>> >
>> > Given you can always disable or bypass the toll bar at your leisure,
>> > that'd make sense to me.
>>
>> Can you? http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,3900,101330-202110,00.html makes
>> it sound slow and expensive to add or remove the bar. Or are you thinking of
>> the Call Restriction or CallTrack services?
>>
>> Steve
>
>I never said it was free :) Nor did I say it was easy - but the account
>holder can obviously request its removal and/or move to a call restriction
>or CallTrack service.
>
>Point is that the Account Holder has the power, its their account..
>I guess the guaruntee is in the introductory paragraph on the above
>referenced url:
>
>"Permanent Toll Bar is a service that prevents all chargeable calls from
>being made from your home phone, including chargeable calls through
>_alternative Network Providers_."
>
>:)

I suppose the point is, if someone has to go through quite an effort to remove the bar, clearly
it involves work for Telecom and they could at the same time start offering the discount to
customers. It would sound reasonable if they are offering the discount as a benefit to customers
who choose them as their primary (direct dial) toll provider and therefore, if they ever need to
make toll calls, might use Telecom, that they should restrict it to customers who can make toll
calls. Since it takes a while and costs money to remove the bar, it would make sense that these
customers are not able to make toll calls with Telecom until they make the effort to remove the
bar (at which time they could also change direct dial toll provider I assume) logic would suggest
they should not be getting the discount. Of course what, when and how Telecom choose to offer
discounts is up to them but since this is not really a discount but a penalty IMHO (for reasons
mentioned in another e-mail) I would def say it's ridiculous for them not to penalise customers
who have barred toll calls.

The account holder always has the power of course, just as they have the power to change toll
providers to Telecom when using another toll provider, but is this really relevant?

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Steve West
2004-10-12 08:05:07 UTC
Permalink
> I would def say it's ridiculous for them not to penalise customers
> who have barred toll calls.

Yes, which is why the reality is the opposite: They penalise you only for
choosing to make tolls through another provider.

Steve

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Mark Foster
2004-10-11 23:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Wrong.

The service applies to *direct dial* toll dialing.

So any 05xx dialing shouldnt have an affect.

http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,203071-202534,00.html


Note the * marking:

*Telecom monthly prices for the Surf plans above apply to Telecom
residential HomeLine customers who have all their direct calling with
Telecom.

*direct dial* = non coded.

If you wish to use an alternate toll provider by code-dialing - based on
my interpretation of the above - this will not penalise you.

The issue of course is that a lot of toll specials provided by telcos are
not available to non-direct-dial toll services.

Mark.



On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Steve Barr wrote:

> Well, Telecom would have it that the $10 concerned is actually a discount to
> their homeline and calling customers, rather than a surcharge aimed at
> others. This sounds reasonable, and is a fairly common practice.
>
> To answer your question though, yes, you'll lose the discount if you use
> alternative toll providers - that's the whole point.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
> Of Steve West
> Sent: Monday, 11 October 2004 9:06 p.m.
> To: ADSL List
> Subject: $10 anti-competition surcharge question
>
> Does anyone know if the surcharge applies if you access an alternate toll
> provider via the 050 prefix?
>
> Steve
>
> --
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>
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LEE Tet Yoon
2004-10-12 05:51:12 UTC
Permalink
At 08:56 a.m. 12/10/2004, you wrote:
>Well, Telecom would have it that the $10 concerned is actually a discount to
>their homeline and calling customers, rather than a surcharge aimed at
>others. This sounds reasonable, and is a fairly common practice.
>
>To answer your question though, yes, you'll lose the discount if you use
>alternative toll providers - that's the whole point.

It's not reasonable for them to offer a discount on a product which they do not (currently) allow
other ISPs to offer via UBS (or i-UBS as it were). It's really a penalty for that reason IMHO.

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LEE Tet Yoon
2004-10-12 11:51:27 UTC
Permalink
At 09:05 p.m. 12/10/2004, you wrote:
>> I would def say it's ridiculous for them not to penalise customers
>> who have barred toll calls.
>
>Yes, which is why the reality is the opposite: They penalise you only for
>choosing to make tolls through another provider.

Did you misread what I've said? I think it's ridiculous for them to NOT penalise customers who
have barred toll calls. I should probably clarify that and say I think it's ridiculous for them to
not penalise customers who have perm barred toll calls when they are going to penalise you for not
having toll calls with them.

If you read my earlier message, I explained why I feel like this.

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Tom Parker
2004-10-12 12:06:38 UTC
Permalink
LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>If you read my earlier message, I explained why I feel like this.

To perhaps explain it more clearly, why should they reward someone who has
permanently barred their tolls, denying telecom any toll revenue from that
account? They don't reward someone who has permenantly moved their tolls to
another provider, which also denies telecom any toll revenue from their
account. From telecom's revenue point of view the situation is the same.

I wonder what would happen if you moved your tolls to another provider and
then barred them?

But as someone said recently, it doesn't have to make sense :-/

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Steve West
2004-10-12 21:17:33 UTC
Permalink
> But as someone said recently, it doesn't have to make sense :-/

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/publications/pdfs/anti-competitive%20practices%20f
inal.pdf explains in plain English what the Commerce Act considers
anti-competitive behaviour. I like this example:

"Example 2
A port company was ordered to pay penalties totalling $500,000 after the
High Court found that the company had breached both section 27 and section
36 (taking advantage of market power) of the Commerce Act.
The port company, which provided a number of services to harbour users
including pilotage, tugs and stevedoring, offered customers a considerable
discount if they purchased all of the harbour services they needed from the
port company. The Court found that the discount had the purpose and likely
effect of substantially lessening competition in the pilotage market."

Steve

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Steve West
2004-10-12 20:04:17 UTC
Permalink
>>> I would def say it's ridiculous for them not to penalise customers
>>> who have barred toll calls.
>>
>> Yes, which is why the reality is the opposite: They penalise you only for
>> choosing to make tolls through another provider.
>
> Did you misread what I've said? I think it's ridiculous for them to NOT
> penalise customers who have barred toll calls.

Yes I understood, hence the "Yes" in my reply indicating agreement. I agree
it's ridiculous. The reality is that they penalise you for giving your money
to someone else, rather than rewarding you for giving it to them.

Steve

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Craig Humphrey
2004-10-12 22:07:27 UTC
Permalink
I guess the only reason that Comcom doesn't come down on Telecom (aside
from the who's in who's pocket issue), is that Telecom's tolls are so
expensive that even with the "$10 discount for bundling everything.."
they're still not competitive...

Or am I just being too cynical.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-***@unixathome.org
> [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf Of Steve West
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:18 AM
> To: ADSL List
> Subject: Re: $10 anti-competition surcharge question
>
> > But as someone said recently, it doesn't have to make sense :-/
>
> http://www.comcom.govt.nz/publications/pdfs/anti-competitive%2
> 0practices%20f
> inal.pdf explains in plain English what the Commerce Act considers
> anti-competitive behaviour. I like this example:
>
> "Example 2
> A port company was ordered to pay penalties totalling
> $500,000 after the
> High Court found that the company had breached both section
> 27 and section
> 36 (taking advantage of market power) of the Commerce Act.
> The port company, which provided a number of services to harbour users
> including pilotage, tugs and stevedoring, offered customers a
> considerable
> discount if they purchased all of the harbour services they
> needed from the
> port company. The Court found that the discount had the
> purpose and likely
> effect of substantially lessening competition in the pilotage market."
>
> Steve

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