Iain Johnston
2004-08-03 10:57:05 UTC
Shessh.
I digress from the topic.. But maybe not much from this thread!
I thought this list was a technical dicussion of things technical.
But a lot of the following is innuendo and flames.
Peace all.
Think of the lentils man.
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From: owner-adsl-***@lists.unixathome.org
[mailto:owner-adsl-***@lists.unixathome.org]
Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2004 10:19 a.m.
To: adsl-***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: adsl-digest V1 #1309
adsl-digest Tuesday, August 3 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1309
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:23:51 +1200
From: Neil Gardner <***@neilnz.com>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
of dsl that may be a business connection since you had (before that) claimed
to be paying $2k/month. You responded pretty clearly that you were using
"ADSL. Xtra, Telecom." and that the business options I listed "Would be
nice, but currently too extensive." (expensive I presume)
Now, if I read you right, you're saying that you're paying $2k/month for
800Mb-1gig of usage. If you are indeed paying that much for Jetstream for
that level of traffic, then I have a bridge here I'd like to sell you.
What actual Jetstream plan are you on? Is it one of the following?
JetStream plan MB allowance
JetStream 600 $61.33
JetStream 1200 $120.00
JetStream 1800 $176.00
JetStream 3000 $292.00
JetStream 5000 $458.00
JetStream 10000 $888.00
JetStream 20000 $1600.00
All prices exclude GST
The only way I can see you using $2k/month worth of Jetstream is to be on
the Jetstream 20000 plan ($1800/month inc GST).
Nothing you've said adds up. I suspect you plucked the $2000/month figure
out of thin air to support your assertion that Telecom should provide you
with a wonderful service. (I note you snipped out all the content of my last
response that addressed why you DON''T have any right to expect Telecom to
provide a carrier grade service for Jetstream prices).
If I'm wrong about this (and I may be), then please please respond with what
plan you're on... If you are currently paying $2k/month for a service with
no SLA, that's unsuitable for VOIP and you're only doing 800Mb-1gig month of
traffic, then I'm sure I can suggest a far more suitable, more reliable
plan, for less money.
Maybe we can help - we just need accurate info on what you're currently on.
Cheers - Neil G
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:24:30 +1200
From: LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
is really conning you. Looking at the Telecom & Xtra website reveals you'll
have to be using at least 20gb a month for you to be paying that much for
business JetStream/ADSL, unless you're paying for bandwidth you don't use or
there is something I'm really missing. I'm not sure what your position in
your company is, but if you're sure your figures are right, heads need to
roll...
Looking at
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5804,00.html
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5975,00.html
http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,3900,200345-201334,00.html
Reveals for example:
For 1200mb, you should be paying $137.78/month in total. You'll need to pay
more for a static IPs but I don't see how you'll end up paying $2000/month.
Even if you need 20gb, you should be paying $1617.78/month + a bit more for
static IPs if needed.
Maybe there are some extra charges for other extras you need but there does
seem to be a serious problem in your figures which need looking in to if you
have that power...
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:40:17 +1200
From: LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
use?
I thought they didn't...
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:07:59 +1200
From: "Brian Gibbons" <***@outersite.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Telecom to axe 600 exchanges. LLU and ADSL gone??
The end of the reliability problems, the end of interleave and hi
latency/round trip times.
If they have fibre to a street box then VDSL for the last kilometre via new
copper at 50mbs then yes it is the end of ADSL as we know it.
Cheers
BG.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:20:35 +1200
From: "Regan Murphy" <***@oasystems.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
Business's can offset the GST in expenditure against the GST in income and
therefore what they owe back to the IRD becomes smaller at the end of the
period.
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Regan
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 09:22:10 +1000
From: "Jared Yates" <***@peace.com>
Subject: Churn fee vs. Contracts
Howdy,
Is there a reason why they have decided to go with this "Churn Fee" as
opposed to letting ISPs enrol users on a minimum term contract?
While I've been here in Australia (4 months going on 14 ;) I've investigated
getting broadband connected where I am staying. The real stumbling block,
apart from not knowing if I am still going to be based here in 2 months
time, has been the fact that most ISPs (usually) require you to sign up for
6-12 months or pay some massive early disconnection fee.
The ones that don't have contracts, have a setup fee of like $180 which
makes the 'monthly'[1] fee a bit steep if you're only in it for 3 or 4
months.
I guess the 'churn fee' is a bit like a setup fee you pay when you leave,
except for the fact that we are also likely to be paying setup fees at the
beginning as well :P
Cheers,
Jared
[1] ie. Actual monthly fee of around $40 + setup fee/no. of months connected
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:27:08 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Its costs $99 to get Jetwhatever installed. This involves a Telecom
contracted technician going and making the physical changes required at the
exchange, as well as a telecom tech making the virtual/rotuing/ISP related
changes.
To change ISP less work is involved.
I fail to see how it costs more to change less.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:35:47 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Your line is a fixed path to your isp. Each ISP has a presence at each of
the 34 atm exchanges around the country.
Your line must be moved onto your new ISP's pop.
This is why there is such a cost. Please read the documentation on the
telecom website in relation to UBS, before making any further posts.
Cheers
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Brooking
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 1:27 p.m.
To: Tom Parker
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Its costs $99 to get Jetwhatever installed. This involves a Telecom
contracted technician going and making the physical changes required at the
exchange, as well as a telecom tech making the virtual/rotuing/ISP related
changes.
To change ISP less work is involved.
I fail to see how it costs more to change less.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:11:42 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
having its own equipment installed at the exchanges.
Telecom documentation.
second and listen to what people are saying.
I see no reference to any Physical changes required at the exchange for
a user to change ISP.
So this is why I am asking, Why a config change on a switch, is going to
cost more, than a Physical change at the exchange AND a config change on
a switch.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:17:18 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question to
the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why the
pricing was set at $100.
Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp has
their own link to the exchange.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brooking [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 3:12 p.m.
To: Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
having its own equipment installed at the exchanges.
Telecom documentation.
second and listen to what people are saying.
I see no reference to any Physical changes required at the exchange for
a user to change ISP.
So this is why I am asking, Why a config change on a switch, is going to
cost more, than a Physical change at the exchange AND a config change on
a switch.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:27:16 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:52:01 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
If you say so, I have not be-littled anyone for questioning the charge.
I think you need to read the documentation again, perhaps the tenth time
over you will understand. Im talking about UBS, not standard jetstream
services.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brooking [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 3:27 p.m.
To: Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:56:31 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
document youre talking about.
The document im reading, sure as hell is about UBS, why else would it be
called "26 july 2004 UBS user guide"
Ill read it again craig, but perhaps to see what youre seeing, ill need
put on my 'English to tard' reading glasses.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:02:31 +1200
From: Biff <***@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Go Jeremy ................. smack the wee twerp again, he deserves it, I was
getting a bit peeved with his pedantic "holier than though" attitude but I
couldn't be bothered with him.
B
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <***@morenet.net.nz>
To: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Cc: <***@lists.unixathome.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:06:32 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Not holier than thou, just sick of people bleating and moaning about
telecom.
This list is supposed to be about technical issues, not about bitching and
moaning about telecom's services etc.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Biff [mailto:***@paradise.net.nz]
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 4:03 p.m.
To: Jeremy Brooking; Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Go Jeremy ................. smack the wee twerp again, he deserves it, I was
getting a bit peeved with his pedantic "holier than though" attitude but I
couldn't be bothered with him.
B
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <***@morenet.net.nz>
To: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Cc: <***@lists.unixathome.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:09:14 +1200
From: "Steve Barr" <***@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
I would imagine that a new customer is worth subsidising in order to achieve
greater market penetration. Not so with a move.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Brooking
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 3:27 p.m.
To: Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:14:46 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
thats a Technical issue.
You must forgive me though, I havent posted here in a while, and forgot
the rules of post-what-craig-considers-ADSL-***@lists.unixathome.org
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:16:49 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
That makes it cheaper to move house, than to move ISP.
I can understand some charge, but I cant understand that.
Surely the work needed to be done (at Telecom) is no more than that of
upgrading from 128k to 256k, and that cost nothing.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:23:47 +1200
From: Neil Gardner <***@neilnz.com>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Previously it was just the absurdity of the argument, but this line really
had me rolling around on the floor.
No, please. Stop. No more.
I can't take it.
Cheers - Neil G
Ps. I fully expect one of you (I have an idea who) to reply with "But he
started it!!!!"
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:02:57 +1200
From: LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
achieve
That makes it cheaper to move house, than to move ISP.
I think that was his point exactly... When you change house you are consider
a
new customer (even though you aren't really). Therefore, even though it
might
actually cost more then $100 to install service for you, Telecom is willing
to
subsidise you by only charging $99 (or whatever the self install fee is) and
pay the rest themselves. However, with an existing customer, Telecom sees no
reason to do so and pass the full cost onto the ISP (who may pass it on to
the
customer). Bear in mind, I'm not agreeing with this, in fact, I feel that it
probably doesn't cost $101.25 for Telecom to change bitstream ISP. However
that is my interpretation of what he is suggesting.
Actually, according to a few messages in over the past few days, this is not
true. The way Telecom is handling things is changing and as such, it's going
to be a little more complex for Telecom to change users from 128k to 256k.
In
any case, just because Telecom doesn't charge you, doesn't mean it's free...
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:10:01 +1200
From: "Chris Day" <***@dse.co.nz>
Subject: ISP Details for inclusion inside DSE ADSL Manuals
Hi all.
We are in the process of updating the user manuals and quick start guides
for our DSE branded ADSL products. If you are an ISP reselling Telecom's
(PPPoA) ADSL services and you would like details to be published in our
manuals, please respond to ***@dse.co.nz with the following
information:
Sales Email:
Sales Phone:
Support Email:
Support Phone:
Weblink:
Company Name:
Primary DNS:
Secondary DNS:
Incoming Mail Server:
Outgoing Mail Server:
As this this data will eventually be reprinted in all DSE branded ADSL
Modems, Routers and Filters, we will also need authorization to redistribute
it to consumer market.
Kind Regards,
Chris Day
Senior Buyer - DSE(NZ)Ltd
email: ***@dse.co.nz
Physical: 221 Bush Rd, Albany, Auckland, New Zealand
Postal: Private Bag 102-903, N.S.M.C., Auckland, NZ.
Phone: +64-9-414-2844 - Fax: +64-9-414-2801 - Cell: +64-21-745-411
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:54:19 +1200
From: "Nathan Legg" <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
<quote>
To clarify why the service would be available to existing customers of an
ISP only. Telecom will be enforcing a churn fee for existing ADSL customers
moving between ISP's. This is to discourage focusing sales efforts at
existing ADSL/Telecom subs and towards dial or non-adsl broadband customers.
ihug's offering will be available to all, there may be charge for existing
non-ihug ADSL customers to migrate however (part or all of the ~$102 churn
fee).
</quote>
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <***@morenet.net.nz>
To: "Steve Barr" <***@xtra.co.nz>
Cc: <***@lists.unixathome.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
achieve
That makes it cheaper to move house, than to move ISP.
I can understand some charge, but I cant understand that.
Surely the work needed to be done (at Telecom) is no more than that of
upgrading from 128k to 256k, and that cost nothing.
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Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:14:02 +1200
From: ***@ihug.co.nz
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
that the official reason Telecom are giving for the churn
fee is to encourage growth not for growth recovery. Of
course whether the offical reason is the real reason or not
is anyones guess...
This statement appears to suggest that existing customers of
an ISP will be considered customers of that ISP and there
will be no churn fee for them.
One thing it doesn't mention is what Ihug's offer is. I
can't seem to find anything yet on the Ihug website...
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I digress from the topic.. But maybe not much from this thread!
I thought this list was a technical dicussion of things technical.
But a lot of the following is innuendo and flames.
Peace all.
Think of the lentils man.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-adsl-***@lists.unixathome.org
[mailto:owner-adsl-***@lists.unixathome.org]
Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2004 10:19 a.m.
To: adsl-***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: adsl-digest V1 #1309
adsl-digest Tuesday, August 3 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1309
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:23:51 +1200
From: Neil Gardner <***@neilnz.com>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 12:13 a.m.
Subject: RE: Strange problems
[snipped NeilG's comments]
Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business jetstream?
Dude... In previous emails I asked if you were using Jetstream or a versionSubject: RE: Strange problems
[snipped NeilG's comments]
Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business jetstream?
of dsl that may be a business connection since you had (before that) claimed
to be paying $2k/month. You responded pretty clearly that you were using
"ADSL. Xtra, Telecom." and that the business options I listed "Would be
nice, but currently too extensive." (expensive I presume)
Now, if I read you right, you're saying that you're paying $2k/month for
800Mb-1gig of usage. If you are indeed paying that much for Jetstream for
that level of traffic, then I have a bridge here I'd like to sell you.
What actual Jetstream plan are you on? Is it one of the following?
JetStream plan MB allowance
JetStream 600 $61.33
JetStream 1200 $120.00
JetStream 1800 $176.00
JetStream 3000 $292.00
JetStream 5000 $458.00
JetStream 10000 $888.00
JetStream 20000 $1600.00
All prices exclude GST
The only way I can see you using $2k/month worth of Jetstream is to be on
the Jetstream 20000 plan ($1800/month inc GST).
Nothing you've said adds up. I suspect you plucked the $2000/month figure
out of thin air to support your assertion that Telecom should provide you
with a wonderful service. (I note you snipped out all the content of my last
response that addressed why you DON''T have any right to expect Telecom to
provide a carrier grade service for Jetstream prices).
If I'm wrong about this (and I may be), then please please respond with what
plan you're on... If you are currently paying $2k/month for a service with
no SLA, that's unsuitable for VOIP and you're only doing 800Mb-1gig month of
traffic, then I'm sure I can suggest a far more suitable, more reliable
plan, for less money.
Maybe we can help - we just need accurate info on what you're currently on.
Cheers - Neil G
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:24:30 +1200
From: LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business
jetstream?
Er, I hate to break this to you, but someone has either really messed up orjetstream?
is really conning you. Looking at the Telecom & Xtra website reveals you'll
have to be using at least 20gb a month for you to be paying that much for
business JetStream/ADSL, unless you're paying for bandwidth you don't use or
there is something I'm really missing. I'm not sure what your position in
your company is, but if you're sure your figures are right, heads need to
roll...
Looking at
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5804,00.html
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5975,00.html
http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,3900,200345-201334,00.html
Reveals for example:
For 1200mb, you should be paying $137.78/month in total. You'll need to pay
more for a static IPs but I don't see how you'll end up paying $2000/month.
Even if you need 20gb, you should be paying $1617.78/month + a bit more for
static IPs if needed.
Maybe there are some extra charges for other extras you need but there does
seem to be a serious problem in your figures which need looking in to if you
have that power...
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 01:40:17 +1200
From: LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
The only way I can see you using $2k/month worth of Jetstream is to be
on the Jetstream 20000 plan ($1800/month inc GST).
This is totally offtopic but do businesses need to pay GST for services theyon the Jetstream 20000 plan ($1800/month inc GST).
use?
I thought they didn't...
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:07:59 +1200
From: "Brian Gibbons" <***@outersite.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Telecom to axe 600 exchanges. LLU and ADSL gone??
Telecom will take out a whole layer of its telecommunications network by
axing 600 local telephone exchanges by 2012 and will spend $120 million
over the next five years rolling out fibre optic cable to its roadside
cabinets.
I wonder if this will signal the end of ADSL as we know it and also
LLU. Telecom could then argue that they have installed all this fiber
and your not getting it..
It would be the and of ADSL as we know it.axing 600 local telephone exchanges by 2012 and will spend $120 million
over the next five years rolling out fibre optic cable to its roadside
cabinets.
I wonder if this will signal the end of ADSL as we know it and also
LLU. Telecom could then argue that they have installed all this fiber
and your not getting it..
The end of the reliability problems, the end of interleave and hi
latency/round trip times.
If they have fibre to a street box then VDSL for the last kilometre via new
copper at 50mbs then yes it is the end of ADSL as we know it.
Cheers
BG.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:20:35 +1200
From: "Regan Murphy" <***@oasystems.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Strange problems
This is totally offtopic but do businesses need to pay GST for
services they use?
I thought they didn't...
Everyone *pays* the GST (i.e. cash changes hands).services they use?
I thought they didn't...
Business's can offset the GST in expenditure against the GST in income and
therefore what they owe back to the IRD becomes smaller at the end of the
period.
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Regan
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 09:22:10 +1000
From: "Jared Yates" <***@peace.com>
Subject: Churn fee vs. Contracts
Howdy,
Is there a reason why they have decided to go with this "Churn Fee" as
opposed to letting ISPs enrol users on a minimum term contract?
While I've been here in Australia (4 months going on 14 ;) I've investigated
getting broadband connected where I am staying. The real stumbling block,
apart from not knowing if I am still going to be based here in 2 months
time, has been the fact that most ISPs (usually) require you to sign up for
6-12 months or pay some massive early disconnection fee.
The ones that don't have contracts, have a setup fee of like $180 which
makes the 'monthly'[1] fee a bit steep if you're only in it for 3 or 4
months.
I guess the 'churn fee' is a bit like a setup fee you pay when you leave,
except for the fact that we are also likely to be paying setup fees at the
beginning as well :P
Cheers,
Jared
[1] ie. Actual monthly fee of around $40 + setup fee/no. of months connected
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:27:08 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
You have got to be pulling my leg! Can you provide a link to the PDF
saying that someone has to be dispatched to the exchange to change
your VIRTUAL circuit?
Exactly.saying that someone has to be dispatched to the exchange to change
your VIRTUAL circuit?
Its costs $99 to get Jetwhatever installed. This involves a Telecom
contracted technician going and making the physical changes required at the
exchange, as well as a telecom tech making the virtual/rotuing/ISP related
changes.
To change ISP less work is involved.
I fail to see how it costs more to change less.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 13:35:47 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Your line is a fixed path to your isp. Each ISP has a presence at each of
the 34 atm exchanges around the country.
Your line must be moved onto your new ISP's pop.
This is why there is such a cost. Please read the documentation on the
telecom website in relation to UBS, before making any further posts.
Cheers
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Brooking
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 1:27 p.m.
To: Tom Parker
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
You have got to be pulling my leg! Can you provide a link to the PDF
sayingthat someone has to be dispatched to the exchange to change your
VIRTUAL circuit?
Exactly.VIRTUAL circuit?
Its costs $99 to get Jetwhatever installed. This involves a Telecom
contracted technician going and making the physical changes required at the
exchange, as well as a telecom tech making the virtual/rotuing/ISP related
changes.
To change ISP less work is involved.
I fail to see how it costs more to change less.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:11:42 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Your line is a fixed path to your isp. Each ISP has a presence at each
of the 34 atm exchanges around the country.
Link? As the documentation ive read/reading make no refernce to an ISPof the 34 atm exchanges around the country.
having its own equipment installed at the exchanges.
Your line must be moved onto your new ISP's pop.
Which is a config change on a switch from what I can see from theTelecom documentation.
This is why there is such a cost. Please read the documentation on the
telecom website in relation to UBS, before making any further posts.
How about you pull your head out of your arrogant little arse for atelecom website in relation to UBS, before making any further posts.
second and listen to what people are saying.
I see no reference to any Physical changes required at the exchange for
a user to change ISP.
So this is why I am asking, Why a config change on a switch, is going to
cost more, than a Physical change at the exchange AND a config change on
a switch.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:17:18 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question to
the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why the
pricing was set at $100.
Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp has
their own link to the exchange.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brooking [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 3:12 p.m.
To: Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Your line is a fixed path to your isp. Each ISP has a presence at each of
the 34 atm exchanges around the country.
Link? As the documentation ive read/reading make no refernce to an ISPthe 34 atm exchanges around the country.
having its own equipment installed at the exchanges.
Your line must be moved onto your new ISP's pop.
Which is a config change on a switch from what I can see from theTelecom documentation.
This is why there is such a cost. Please read the documentation on the
telecom website in relation to UBS, before making any further posts.
How about you pull your head out of your arrogant little arse for atelecom website in relation to UBS, before making any further posts.
second and listen to what people are saying.
I see no reference to any Physical changes required at the exchange for
a user to change ISP.
So this is why I am asking, Why a config change on a switch, is going to
cost more, than a Physical change at the exchange AND a config change on
a switch.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:27:16 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question to
the list.
And your attitude to others has been any better? Yeah... ok.the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why
thepricing was set at $100.
Yet you still felt the need to belittle others for questioning it.Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp has
their own link to the exchange.
'Can have' not must, according to the documentation. And as pointed outtheir own link to the exchange.
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:52:01 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
If you say so, I have not be-littled anyone for questioning the charge.
I think you need to read the documentation again, perhaps the tenth time
over you will understand. Im talking about UBS, not standard jetstream
services.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brooking [mailto:***@morenet.net.nz]
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 3:27 p.m.
To: Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question to
the list.
And your attitude to others has been any better? Yeah... ok.the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why
thepricing was set at $100.
Yet you still felt the need to belittle others for questioning it.Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp has
their own link to the exchange.
'Can have' not must, according to the documentation. And as pointed outtheir own link to the exchange.
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 15:56:31 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
If you say so, I have not be-littled anyone for questioning the charge.
I think you need to read the documentation again, perhaps the tenth time
over you will understand. Im talking about UBS, not standard jetstream
services.
So give me the link, a number of people has been asking for, to theI think you need to read the documentation again, perhaps the tenth time
over you will understand. Im talking about UBS, not standard jetstream
services.
document youre talking about.
The document im reading, sure as hell is about UBS, why else would it be
called "26 july 2004 UBS user guide"
Ill read it again craig, but perhaps to see what youre seeing, ill need
put on my 'English to tard' reading glasses.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:02:31 +1200
From: Biff <***@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Go Jeremy ................. smack the wee twerp again, he deserves it, I was
getting a bit peeved with his pedantic "holier than though" attitude but I
couldn't be bothered with him.
B
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <***@morenet.net.nz>
To: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Cc: <***@lists.unixathome.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question
to
the list.
And your attitude to others has been any better? Yeah... ok.to
the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why
the
pricing was set at $100.
Yet you still felt the need to belittle others for questioning it.the
pricing was set at $100.
Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp
has
their own link to the exchange.
'Can have' not must, according to the documentation. And as pointed outhas
their own link to the exchange.
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:06:32 +1200
From: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Not holier than thou, just sick of people bleating and moaning about
telecom.
This list is supposed to be about technical issues, not about bitching and
moaning about telecom's services etc.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Biff [mailto:***@paradise.net.nz]
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 4:03 p.m.
To: Jeremy Brooking; Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Go Jeremy ................. smack the wee twerp again, he deserves it, I was
getting a bit peeved with his pedantic "holier than though" attitude but I
couldn't be bothered with him.
B
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <***@morenet.net.nz>
To: "Craig Spiers" <***@concept.net.nz>
Cc: <***@lists.unixathome.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question
to
the list.
And your attitude to others has been any better? Yeah... ok.to
the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why
the
pricing was set at $100.
Yet you still felt the need to belittle others for questioning it.the
pricing was set at $100.
Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp
has
their own link to the exchange.
'Can have' not must, according to the documentation. And as pointed outhas
their own link to the exchange.
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:09:14 +1200
From: "Steve Barr" <***@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
I would imagine that a new customer is worth subsidising in order to achieve
greater market penetration. Not so with a move.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Jeremy Brooking
Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 3:27 p.m.
To: Craig Spiers
Cc: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Think you need to chill the fuck out for a bit and repost your question to
the list.
And your attitude to others has been any better? Yeah... ok.the list.
I have no idea why it costs what it does, and never claimed to know why
thepricing was set at $100.
Yet you still felt the need to belittle others for questioning it.Im not saying the ISP has equipment at the exchange, im saying the isp has
their own link to the exchange.
'Can have' not must, according to the documentation. And as pointed outtheir own link to the exchange.
before, the config changes done to move a user from 1 ISP to another,
_appears_ (from the documentation) to be less work than the original
install, yet costs more.
Shock horror isnt it, that people are trying to form an understanding to
this.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:14:46 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
Not holier than thou, just sick of people bleating and moaning about
telecom.
Oh how things change in a couple of years.telecom.
This list is supposed to be about technical issues, not about bitching and
moaning about telecom's services etc.
Thats why people are questioning the charging, relating to a somethingmoaning about telecom's services etc.
thats a Technical issue.
You must forgive me though, I havent posted here in a while, and forgot
the rules of post-what-craig-considers-ADSL-***@lists.unixathome.org
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:16:49 +1200
From: Jeremy Brooking <***@morenet.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
I would imagine that a new customer is worth subsidising in order to
achievegreater market penetration. Not so with a move.
That is understandable, but $100?That makes it cheaper to move house, than to move ISP.
I can understand some charge, but I cant understand that.
Surely the work needed to be done (at Telecom) is no more than that of
upgrading from 128k to 256k, and that cost nothing.
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:23:47 +1200
From: Neil Gardner <***@neilnz.com>
Subject: RE: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Brooking
Ill read it again craig, but perhaps to see what youre seeing, ill need
put on my 'English to tard' reading glasses.
Oh guys, please stop it. My sides are already hurting from all the laughter.From: Jeremy Brooking
Ill read it again craig, but perhaps to see what youre seeing, ill need
put on my 'English to tard' reading glasses.
Previously it was just the absurdity of the argument, but this line really
had me rolling around on the floor.
No, please. Stop. No more.
I can't take it.
Cheers - Neil G
Ps. I fully expect one of you (I have an idea who) to reply with "But he
started it!!!!"
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 17:02:57 +1200
From: LEE Tet Yoon <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
I would imagine that a new customer is worth subsidising in order to
greater market penetration. Not so with a move.
That is understandable, but $100?That makes it cheaper to move house, than to move ISP.
a
new customer (even though you aren't really). Therefore, even though it
might
actually cost more then $100 to install service for you, Telecom is willing
to
subsidise you by only charging $99 (or whatever the self install fee is) and
pay the rest themselves. However, with an existing customer, Telecom sees no
reason to do so and pass the full cost onto the ISP (who may pass it on to
the
customer). Bear in mind, I'm not agreeing with this, in fact, I feel that it
probably doesn't cost $101.25 for Telecom to change bitstream ISP. However
that is my interpretation of what he is suggesting.
Surely the work needed to be done (at Telecom) is no more than that of
upgrading from 128k to 256k, and that cost nothing.Actually, according to a few messages in over the past few days, this is not
true. The way Telecom is handling things is changing and as such, it's going
to be a little more complex for Telecom to change users from 128k to 256k.
In
any case, just because Telecom doesn't charge you, doesn't mean it's free...
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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:10:01 +1200
From: "Chris Day" <***@dse.co.nz>
Subject: ISP Details for inclusion inside DSE ADSL Manuals
Hi all.
We are in the process of updating the user manuals and quick start guides
for our DSE branded ADSL products. If you are an ISP reselling Telecom's
(PPPoA) ADSL services and you would like details to be published in our
manuals, please respond to ***@dse.co.nz with the following
information:
Sales Email:
Sales Phone:
Support Email:
Support Phone:
Weblink:
Company Name:
Primary DNS:
Secondary DNS:
Incoming Mail Server:
Outgoing Mail Server:
As this this data will eventually be reprinted in all DSE branded ADSL
Modems, Routers and Filters, we will also need authorization to redistribute
it to consumer market.
Kind Regards,
Chris Day
Senior Buyer - DSE(NZ)Ltd
email: ***@dse.co.nz
Physical: 221 Bush Rd, Albany, Auckland, New Zealand
Postal: Private Bag 102-903, N.S.M.C., Auckland, NZ.
Phone: +64-9-414-2844 - Fax: +64-9-414-2801 - Cell: +64-21-745-411
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 20:54:19 +1200
From: "Nathan Legg" <***@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
<quote>
To clarify why the service would be available to existing customers of an
ISP only. Telecom will be enforcing a churn fee for existing ADSL customers
moving between ISP's. This is to discourage focusing sales efforts at
existing ADSL/Telecom subs and towards dial or non-adsl broadband customers.
ihug's offering will be available to all, there may be charge for existing
non-ihug ADSL customers to migrate however (part or all of the ~$102 churn
fee).
</quote>
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Brooking" <***@morenet.net.nz>
To: "Steve Barr" <***@xtra.co.nz>
Cc: <***@lists.unixathome.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
I would imagine that a new customer is worth subsidising in order to
greater market penetration. Not so with a move.
That is understandable, but $100?That makes it cheaper to move house, than to move ISP.
I can understand some charge, but I cant understand that.
Surely the work needed to be done (at Telecom) is no more than that of
upgrading from 128k to 256k, and that cost nothing.
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and various documents.
with "unsubscribe adsl" in the body of the message
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 10:14:02 +1200
From: ***@ihug.co.nz
Subject: Re: Churn Fee (was) Re: JetStream
<quote>
To clarify why the service would be available to existing
customers of an ISP only. Telecom will be enforcing a
churn fee for existing ADSL customers moving between
ISP's. This is to discourage focusing sales efforts at
existing ADSL/Telecom subs and towards dial or non-adsl
broadband customers. ihug's offering will be available to
all, there may be charge for existing non-ihug ADSL
customers to migrate however (part or all of the ~$102
churn fee).
</quote>
This agrees with all other info we have so far, which isTo clarify why the service would be available to existing
customers of an ISP only. Telecom will be enforcing a
churn fee for existing ADSL customers moving between
ISP's. This is to discourage focusing sales efforts at
existing ADSL/Telecom subs and towards dial or non-adsl
broadband customers. ihug's offering will be available to
all, there may be charge for existing non-ihug ADSL
customers to migrate however (part or all of the ~$102
churn fee).
</quote>
that the official reason Telecom are giving for the churn
fee is to encourage growth not for growth recovery. Of
course whether the offical reason is the real reason or not
is anyones guess...
This statement appears to suggest that existing customers of
an ISP will be considered customers of that ISP and there
will be no churn fee for them.
One thing it doesn't mention is what Ihug's offer is. I
can't seem to find anything yet on the Ihug website...
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------------------------------
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see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
To unsubscribe: send mail to ***@lists.unixathome.org
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see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
To unsubscribe: send mail to ***@lists.unixathome.org
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