Strange problems

[Tim Boobyer]

Anyone else experiencing weird speed issues on DSL right now? I should be
on Jetsurf (256k), with World-Net. About 12:30am the dsl connection
dropped, and when it came back up a few minutes ago I have been limited to
128k, and assigned an Iprolink IP. Something doesn't seem right here...

Jetsurf
World-Net
Based in Palmerston North

[Matt]

My connection also dropped last night at 12.30am. I had to reboot the
router to reconnect, and now find I am downloading at 250kbs (rather than
32), which is great :), BUT my gaming pings are now 80-90, when they used to
be 45-50. With Orcon 256k.

Matt



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Tim Boobyer
Sent: Friday, 30 July 2004 1:27 a.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Strange problems

Anyone else experiencing weird speed issues on DSL right now? I should be
on Jetsurf (256k), with World-Net. About 12:30am the dsl connection
dropped, and when it came back up a few minutes ago I have been limited to
128k, and assigned an Iprolink IP. Something doesn't seem right here...

Jetsurf
World-Net
Based in Palmerston North

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[Craig Hoskin]

It may not be related, but all day yesterday we (and a few others in the
area) were having problems with high packet loss, lost IP Address (no
PPP negotiation) etc.

Im on World-Net Surf plan, and others were on Xtra Surf, and all
experienced the same.

After a bit of pushing Telecom stated a "problem with ATM interface on
the WAN edge router you are connected to".

Not sure if this was just for Gisb, but it seems a bit better this
morning.
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Tim Boobyer [mailto:***@netdaemon.org]
| Sent: Friday, 30 July 2004 1:27 a.m.
| To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
| Subject: Strange problems
|
| Anyone else experiencing weird speed issues on DSL right now?
| I should be on Jetsurf (256k), with World-Net. About
| 12:30am the dsl connection dropped, and when it came back up
| a few minutes ago I have been limited to 128k, and assigned
| an Iprolink IP. Something doesn't seem right here...
|
| Jetsurf
| World-Net
| Based in Palmerston North

[m***@sineapps.com]

Sorry for top post (lazy) and the me-too-ness (making a point)

Here in dunedin we lost connections ranging from 11 in the morning
right through to 6pm (although each machine was in a different area
and each was disconnected only once).

It sucks that telecom can just disconnect us when they feel like it.
What are you supposed to do if your business relies on urgent emails,
and telecom disconnects you a couple of times a month.

Grrrrrrr...

Matt Riddell

Post by Craig Hoskin
It may not be related, but all day yesterday we (and a few others in
the area) were having problems with high packet loss, lost IP Address
(no PPP negotiation) etc.
Im on World-Net Surf plan, and others were on Xtra Surf, and all
experienced the same.
After a bit of pushing Telecom stated a "problem with ATM interface on
the WAN edge router you are connected to".
Not sure if this was just for Gisb, but it seems a bit better this
morning. | -----Original Message----- | From: Tim Boobyer
Anyone else experiencing weird speed issues on DSL right now? | I
should be on Jetsurf (256k), with World-Net. About | 12:30am the dsl
connection dropped, and when it came back up | a few minutes ago I
have been limited to 128k, and assigned | an Iprolink IP. Something
doesn't seem right here... | | Jetsurf | World-Net | Based in
Palmerston North
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see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
with "unsubscribe adsl" in the body of the message

[Steve Phillips]

Post by m***@sineapps.com
Sorry for top post (lazy) and the me-too-ness (making a point)
Here in dunedin we lost connections ranging from 11 in the morning
right through to 6pm (although each machine was in a different area
and each was disconnected only once).
It sucks that telecom can just disconnect us when they feel like it.
What are you supposed to do if your business relies on urgent emails,
and telecom disconnects you a couple of times a month.

I'm sure that even tho you are being maliciously targeted by Telecom you
can still do something about it.

Such things as becoming less reliant on e-mail so that you can survive
the couple of times a month that Telecom mercilessly target you would
probably be a good place to start. Another option could be to use a
service that has SLA's and is touted as being more than a residential
type sevice. Business grade connections are available from a number of
vendors - perhap you should investigate other connectivity options
(unless you are simply being cheap and dont want to pay business rates)

I think there was an old saying that goes "fast, reliable, cheap - pick
any two." you should probably remember that before ranting to the list.

[m***@sineapps.com]

Post by Steve Phillips

Post by m***@sineapps.com
Sorry for top post (lazy) and the me-too-ness (making a point)
Here in dunedin we lost connections ranging from 11 in the morning
right through to 6pm (although each machine was in a different area
and each was disconnected only once).
It sucks that telecom can just disconnect us when they feel like it.
What are you supposed to do if your business relies on urgent
emails, and telecom disconnects you a couple of times a month.

I'm sure that even tho you are being maliciously targeted by Telecom
you can still do something about it.
Such things as becoming less reliant on e-mail so that you can survive
the couple of times a month that Telecom mercilessly target you would
probably be a good place to start. Another option could be to use a
service that has SLA's and is touted as being more than a residential
type sevice. Business grade connections are available from a number of
vendors - perhap you should investigate other connectivity options
(unless you are simply being cheap and dont want to pay business
rates)
I think there was an old saying that goes "fast, reliable, cheap -
pick any two." you should probably remember that before ranting to the
list.

Oh sorry I thought the $2000 or so we paid per month for business
adsl and download capacity would ensure a network that worked.

Silly me.

Matt Riddell

[Neil Gardner]

Post by Matt
-----Original Message-----
Oh sorry I thought the $2000 or so we paid per month for business adsl and

download capacity would ensure a

Post by Matt
network that worked.

You mean you pay $2000/month for ADSL and it's used for a business? Or you
pay $2000/month for a business connection from whatever ISP and it happens
to be delivered through an xDSL variant?

Frame relay (delivered over 2mbit S.HDSL or HDSL), IP Networking, Private
Office Networking? SBI?

I could spend $2000/month on ADSL too [1], doesn't mean it's a business
_GRADE_ connection. Remember, even the 20GB plans Telecom sell still come
with the written disclaimers that it's unsuitable for any sort of hosting,
any sort of 2 way video or voice, and unsuitable for VPN use. In fact they
basically state it's intended for Web Browsing, Email and video streaming.

Cheers - Neil G

[1] Maybe for one month, then I'd be broke :-)

[m***@sineapps.com]

Post by m***@sineapps.com

Post by Matt
-----Original Message-----
Oh sorry I thought the $2000 or so we paid per month for business
adsl and

download capacity would ensure a

Post by Matt
network that worked.

You mean you pay $2000/month for ADSL and it's used for a business? Or
you pay $2000/month for a business connection from whatever ISP and it
happens to be delivered through an xDSL variant?

ADSL. Xtra, Telecom.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
Frame relay (delivered over 2mbit S.HDSL or HDSL), IP Networking,
Private Office Networking? SBI?

Would be nice, but currently too extensive.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
I could spend $2000/month on ADSL too [1], doesn't mean it's a
business _GRADE_ connection. Remember, even the 20GB plans Telecom
sell still come with the written disclaimers that it's unsuitable for
any sort of hosting, any sort of 2 way video or voice, and unsuitable
for VPN use. In fact they basically state it's intended for Web
Browsing, Email and video streaming.

The problem is, that if it keeps being disconnected (1 or 2 times a
month - and no it's not the office, it happens on all the connections
down here) then it's not really too usefull for anything important.
It sucks that our only option is to wait for Telstra to finish laying
it's fiber to our office. Be assured that we will move to their
plans when available.

My gripe was with the fact that telecom can disconnect you whenever
it wants and there's nothing you can do about it. If I bought a car
and it was disabled twice a month I would take it back. If I had a
telephone line that wouldn't accept calls for two-three hours a
month, telecom would fix it.

And if I have a problem with ADSL? Oh you'd better wait for
bitstream and hope that someone else can do it better? Oh wait,
telecom will probably still handle the networks, and when you call
your ISP to say there is a problem, they'll probably still be able to
blame telecom and wipe their hands of it.

If there was another network (yes telstra will be setup at this
office soon) then I'd be able to failover to another company, but as
it stands, even if I got a connection from all available ISP's down
here, they'd probably go down with telecom.

Ah well, such is life.

I guess $2000 is still considered cheap, in which case I guess it's
also fast, in which case I guess that chucks reliabilty out.

Oh and you want to do VOIP? Ha! I don't think so, that might compete
with the Monopoly...tsk tsk...

Matt

P.S. My business is based around VOIP and I do it sucessfully most of
the time...even though the minimum ping you can get here in dunedin
(even between dunedin servers) is 90ms-110ms

[Craig Spiers]

Actually.. the only way to fix this, is to change technology.

SDSL, HDSL and ADSL are all subject to this.. despite what you may think, it
isn't actually telecom *disconnecting you*. When the modems notice changes
in line quality, they re-negotiate, most of the time they can do this
without cycling the line, however in extreme cases the line must be
cycled/restarted to complete the renegotiation.

Yet another telecom basher!

Cheers



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of ***@sineapps.com
Sent: Sunday, 1 August 2004 11:50 a.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: RE: Strange problems

Post by m***@sineapps.com

Post by Matt
-----Original Message-----
Oh sorry I thought the $2000 or so we paid per month for business
adsl and

download capacity would ensure a

Post by Matt
network that worked.

You mean you pay $2000/month for ADSL and it's used for a business? Or
you pay $2000/month for a business connection from whatever ISP and it
happens to be delivered through an xDSL variant?

ADSL. Xtra, Telecom.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
Frame relay (delivered over 2mbit S.HDSL or HDSL), IP Networking,
Private Office Networking? SBI?

Would be nice, but currently too extensive.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
I could spend $2000/month on ADSL too [1], doesn't mean it's a
business _GRADE_ connection. Remember, even the 20GB plans Telecom
sell still come with the written disclaimers that it's unsuitable for
any sort of hosting, any sort of 2 way video or voice, and unsuitable
for VPN use. In fact they basically state it's intended for Web
Browsing, Email and video streaming.

The problem is, that if it keeps being disconnected (1 or 2 times a
month - and no it's not the office, it happens on all the connections
down here) then it's not really too usefull for anything important.
It sucks that our only option is to wait for Telstra to finish laying
it's fiber to our office. Be assured that we will move to their
plans when available.

My gripe was with the fact that telecom can disconnect you whenever
it wants and there's nothing you can do about it. If I bought a car
and it was disabled twice a month I would take it back. If I had a
telephone line that wouldn't accept calls for two-three hours a
month, telecom would fix it.

And if I have a problem with ADSL? Oh you'd better wait for
bitstream and hope that someone else can do it better? Oh wait,
telecom will probably still handle the networks, and when you call
your ISP to say there is a problem, they'll probably still be able to
blame telecom and wipe their hands of it.

If there was another network (yes telstra will be setup at this
office soon) then I'd be able to failover to another company, but as
it stands, even if I got a connection from all available ISP's down
here, they'd probably go down with telecom.

Ah well, such is life.

I guess $2000 is still considered cheap, in which case I guess it's
also fast, in which case I guess that chucks reliabilty out.

Oh and you want to do VOIP? Ha! I don't think so, that might compete
with the Monopoly...tsk tsk...

Matt

P.S. My business is based around VOIP and I do it sucessfully most of
the time...even though the minimum ping you can get here in dunedin
(even between dunedin servers) is 90ms-110ms
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[m***@sineapps.com]

Post by Craig Spiers
Actually.. the only way to fix this, is to change technology.
SDSL, HDSL and ADSL are all subject to this.. despite what you may
think, it isn't actually telecom *disconnecting you*. When the modems
notice changes in line quality, they re-negotiate, most of the time
they can do this without cycling the line, however in extreme cases
the line must be cycled/restarted to complete the renegotiation.
Yet another telecom basher!
Cheers

Wow that's amazing! So when I traceroute out of my boxes and it gets
to the XTRA machines on the other side but stops there, or (last
week) I can send data to machines as long as I know their IP address
(their DNS failed for an hour or two) it's just cos my router is "re-
negotiating"?

Matt

[Craig Spiers]

Oh my gosh.. You're an idiot.

You stated you had been 'disconnected', I ran along on the assumption that
you had been disconnected.. Clearly you had not..

Please tell me you don't work in the technical industry!!!

I suspect the problem is with dynamic routing between xtra and ipnet then,
ive noticed problems here in the past, not just with xtra.

Cheers

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of ***@sineapps.com
Sent: Sunday, 1 August 2004 12:14 p.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: RE: Strange problems

Post by Craig Spiers
Actually.. the only way to fix this, is to change technology.
SDSL, HDSL and ADSL are all subject to this.. despite what you may
think, it isn't actually telecom *disconnecting you*. When the modems
notice changes in line quality, they re-negotiate, most of the time
they can do this without cycling the line, however in extreme cases
the line must be cycled/restarted to complete the renegotiation.
Yet another telecom basher!
Cheers

Wow that's amazing! So when I traceroute out of my boxes and it gets
to the XTRA machines on the other side but stops there, or (last
week) I can send data to machines as long as I know their IP address
(their DNS failed for an hour or two) it's just cos my router is "re-
negotiating"?

Matt
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see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
To unsubscribe: send mail to ***@lists.unixathome.org
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[Neil Gardner]

Post by m***@sineapps.com
ADSL. Xtra, Telecom.

That's your first problem :-)

Post by m***@sineapps.com

Post by Neil Gardner
Frame relay (delivered over 2mbit S.HDSL or HDSL), IP Networking,
Private Office Networking? SBI?

Would be nice, but currently too extensive.

For $2k/month you could get a business grade connection. It won't be 8mbit
flatrate, but it won't suck.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
The problem is, that if it keeps being disconnected (1 or 2 times a
month - and no it's not the office, it happens on all the connections
down here) then it's not really too usefull for anything important.

That's exactly my point. Jetstream is NOT INTENDED to be useful for anything
important. Why would any business make their entry level products suitable
for high end business with wonderful SLAs? Either they would lose money on
them, or have to charge too much for an entry level product. Here's a link
to Telecom's Service reliability statement...

http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,202924-202473,00.html

Here's a snippet

---- cut here ----
Xtra JetStream is provided with an unspecified bit rate and offers no
guaranteed minimum performance. As the Xtra JetStream service can
occasionally go down, we do not recommend JetStream for 'mission critical'
purposes. We cannot guarantee how quickly we can resolve problems with the
network.

Xtra JetStream is not designed to support:

Virtual Private Networks (VPNs)
Two-way voice applications
Two-way video applications
Web servers
We will manage the performance of the IP network proactively, within the
above guidelines, for operational or other reasons.
---- cut here ----

Post by m***@sineapps.com
P.S. My business is based around VOIP and I do it sucessfully most of
the time...even though the minimum ping you can get here in dunedin
(even between dunedin servers) is 90ms-110ms

Well, it's your fault for buying a product that Telecom specifically states
is not suitable for VOIP and may go down from time to time. Although I am
not the biggest fan of Telecom, in this case you're _Lucky_ to be able to
use VOIP most of the time. I fail to see how you can complain when it's so
clearly outlined in their service conditions.

Telecom will happily provision you with a connection suitable (and with SLA
guarantees) for VOIP, but they won't charge you the same as their entry
level high speed service.

I fail to see any problem here, just your perceived problem that Telecom
won't give you a fantastic, business grade, fast connection when you're only
prepared to pay for Jetstream.

Cheers- Neil G

[Craig Spiers]

Well said neil, cheers.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On Behalf
Of Neil Gardner
Sent: Sunday, 1 August 2004 12:23 p.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: RE: Strange problems

Post by m***@sineapps.com
ADSL. Xtra, Telecom.

That's your first problem :-)

Post by m***@sineapps.com

Post by Neil Gardner
Frame relay (delivered over 2mbit S.HDSL or HDSL), IP Networking,
Private Office Networking? SBI?

Would be nice, but currently too extensive.

For $2k/month you could get a business grade connection. It won't be 8mbit
flatrate, but it won't suck.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
The problem is, that if it keeps being disconnected (1 or 2 times a
month - and no it's not the office, it happens on all the connections
down here) then it's not really too usefull for anything important.

That's exactly my point. Jetstream is NOT INTENDED to be useful for anything
important. Why would any business make their entry level products suitable
for high end business with wonderful SLAs? Either they would lose money on
them, or have to charge too much for an entry level product. Here's a link
to Telecom's Service reliability statement...

http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,202924-202473,00.html

Here's a snippet

---- cut here ----
Xtra JetStream is provided with an unspecified bit rate and offers no
guaranteed minimum performance. As the Xtra JetStream service can
occasionally go down, we do not recommend JetStream for 'mission critical'
purposes. We cannot guarantee how quickly we can resolve problems with the
network.

Xtra JetStream is not designed to support:

Virtual Private Networks (VPNs)
Two-way voice applications
Two-way video applications
Web servers
We will manage the performance of the IP network proactively, within the
above guidelines, for operational or other reasons.
---- cut here ----

Post by m***@sineapps.com
P.S. My business is based around VOIP and I do it sucessfully most of
the time...even though the minimum ping you can get here in dunedin
(even between dunedin servers) is 90ms-110ms

Well, it's your fault for buying a product that Telecom specifically states
is not suitable for VOIP and may go down from time to time. Although I am
not the biggest fan of Telecom, in this case you're _Lucky_ to be able to
use VOIP most of the time. I fail to see how you can complain when it's so
clearly outlined in their service conditions.

Telecom will happily provision you with a connection suitable (and with SLA
guarantees) for VOIP, but they won't charge you the same as their entry
level high speed service.

I fail to see any problem here, just your perceived problem that Telecom
won't give you a fantastic, business grade, fast connection when you're only
prepared to pay for Jetstream.

Cheers- Neil G
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see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
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[Steve Phillips]

Post by m***@sineapps.com
The problem is, that if it keeps being disconnected (1 or 2 times a
month - and no it's not the office, it happens on all the connections
down here) then it's not really too usefull for anything important.
It sucks that our only option is to wait for Telstra to finish laying
it's fiber to our office. Be assured that we will move to their
plans when available.

eh ?

Post by m***@sineapps.com
My gripe was with the fact that telecom can disconnect you whenever
it wants and there's nothing you can do about it. If I bought a car
and it was disabled twice a month I would take it back. If I had a
telephone line that wouldn't accept calls for two-three hours a
month, telecom would fix it.

the DSL service is sold as a best effort, dont expect it to be reliable,
no SLA's type service. if it breaks for extended periods then sure, lodge
a fault - but stop your moaning already - its the service you brought, if
you want it to be better then get an SLA put around it. Its not really
that hard-a concept to figure out.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
And if I have a problem with ADSL? Oh you'd better wait for
bitstream and hope that someone else can do it better? Oh wait,
telecom will probably still handle the networks, and when you call
your ISP to say there is a problem, they'll probably still be able to
blame telecom and wipe their hands of it.

Your ranting about something does not make it truth.

Post by m***@sineapps.com
If there was another network (yes telstra will be setup at this
office soon) then I'd be able to failover to another company, but as
it stands, even if I got a connection from all available ISP's down
here, they'd probably go down with telecom.
Ah well, such is life.
I guess $2000 is still considered cheap, in which case I guess it's
also fast, in which case I guess that chucks reliabilty out.

And what I find incredibly amusing about this is that you think the "Fast,
Reliable Cheap - choose any two" addage applys only to Telecom ? oh well -
I guess you'll learn. (and yes, i've had first hand experience with
Telstra faults, nothing quite like spending in excess of 200k/mo with them
and to have one or two outages a month with suprising regularity that
lasted for hours on end.. oh, my bad - I heard Telstra were reliable..)

Post by m***@sineapps.com
Oh and you want to do VOIP? Ha! I don't think so, that might compete
with the Monopoly...tsk tsk...

Anyone can do VoIP, just because _you_ aint doing it properly doesn't make
it someone elses fault.

[m***@sineapps.com]

Post by Neil Gardner
I fail to see any problem here, just your perceived problem that
Telecom won't give you a fantastic, business grade, fast connection
when you're only prepared to pay for Jetstream.

Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business
jetstream?

[LEE Tet Yoon]

Post by m***@sineapps.com
Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business
jetstream?

Er, I hate to break this to you, but someone has either really messed up or is
really conning you. Looking at the Telecom & Xtra website reveals you'll have
to be using at least 20gb a month for you to be paying that much for business
JetStream/ADSL, unless you're paying for bandwidth you don't use or there is
something I'm really missing. I'm not sure what your position in your company
is, but if you're sure your figures are right, heads need to roll...

Looking at
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5804,00.html
http://www.xtra.co.nz/products/0,,5975,00.html
http://www.telecom.co.nz/content/0,3900,200345-201334,00.html

Reveals for example:

For 1200mb, you should be paying $137.78/month in total. You'll need to pay
more for a static IPs but I don't see how you'll end up paying $2000/month.

Even if you need 20gb, you should be paying $1617.78/month + a bit more for
static IPs if needed.

Maybe there are some extra charges for other extras you need but there does
seem to be a serious problem in your figures which need looking in to if you
have that power...

[Neil Gardner]

Sent: Monday, 2 August 2004 12:13 a.m.
Subject: RE: Strange problems
[snipped NeilG's comments]
Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business jetstream?

Dude... In previous emails I asked if you were using Jetstream or a version
of dsl that may be a business connection since you had (before that) claimed
to be paying $2k/month. You responded pretty clearly that you were using
"ADSL. Xtra, Telecom." and that the business options I listed "Would be
nice, but currently too extensive." (expensive I presume)

Now, if I read you right, you're saying that you're paying $2k/month for
800Mb-1gig of usage. If you are indeed paying that much for Jetstream for
that level of traffic, then I have a bridge here I'd like to sell you.

What actual Jetstream plan are you on? Is it one of the following?

JetStream plan MB allowance
JetStream 600 $61.33
JetStream 1200 $120.00
JetStream 1800 $176.00
JetStream 3000 $292.00
JetStream 5000 $458.00
JetStream 10000 $888.00
JetStream 20000 $1600.00
All prices exclude GST

The only way I can see you using $2k/month worth of Jetstream is to be on
the Jetstream 20000 plan ($1800/month inc GST).

Nothing you've said adds up. I suspect you plucked the $2000/month figure
out of thin air to support your assertion that Telecom should provide you
with a wonderful service. (I note you snipped out all the content of my last
response that addressed why you DON''T have any right to expect Telecom to
provide a carrier grade service for Jetstream prices).

If I'm wrong about this (and I may be), then please please respond with what
plan you're on... If you are currently paying $2k/month for a service with
no SLA, that's unsuitable for VOIP and you're only doing 800Mb-1gig month of
traffic, then I'm sure I can suggest a far more suitable, more reliable
plan, for less money.

Maybe we can help - we just need accurate info on what you're currently on.

Cheers - Neil G

[LEE Tet Yoon]

Post by Neil Gardner
The only way I can see you using $2k/month worth of Jetstream is to be on
the Jetstream 20000 plan ($1800/month inc GST).

This is totally offtopic but do businesses need to pay GST for services they use?

I thought they didn't...

[Ross Dawson]

Post by m***@sineapps.com

Post by Neil Gardner
I fail to see any problem here, just your perceived problem that
Telecom won't give you a fantastic, business grade, fast connection
when you're only prepared to pay for Jetstream.

Wow! Is $2000.00 with around 800Mb-1gig of usage non business
jetstream?

Over how many connections is this $2,000.00 per month spent, and is
this just for your data needs or does it happen to also include phone
charges??

Apologies for this repost, but the original post appears not to have
made the list.
--
Cheers for now

Ross Dawson.

[Regan Murphy]

Post by LEE Tet Yoon
This is totally offtopic but do businesses need to pay GST
for services they use?
I thought they didn't...

Everyone *pays* the GST (i.e. cash changes hands).

Business's can offset the GST in expenditure against the GST in income
and therefore what they owe back to the IRD becomes smaller at the end
of the period.

--
Regan