Commerce commission / Telecom

[Ian Batterbee]

Telecommunications Commissioner - 'Telecom attitude change would benefit
consumers and Telecom.'

http://www.comcom.govt.nz//MediaCentre/MediaReleases/2004/telecommunicationscommissionertele.aspx

[Paul Brislen]

Ahem <trumpet blowing on>

story here:

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/nl/E6FFCF025A744F5FCC25702D001C0EF0

and some other coverage here:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3327256a28,00.html

and here:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=5&ObjectID=10333038

Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into wholesale
and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which had various people
in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

cheers,

Paul

[Juha Saarinen]

Post by Paul Brislen
Ahem <trumpet blowing on>
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/nl/E6FFCF025A744F5FCC25702D001C0EF0
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3327256a28,00.html
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=5&ObjectID=10333038
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into wholesale
and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which had various people
in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

And, I think it's important to point out that most of the "clueless
media" didn't ever buy into the notion of pseudo-unbundling. Webb's
speech simply confirmed what we've been saying for a very long time now.
It's not working, it never will.

[Gordon Milne]

Post by Juha Saarinen

Post by Paul Brislen
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into wholesale
and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which had various people
in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

And, I think it's important to point out that most of the "clueless
media" didn't ever buy into the notion of pseudo-unbundling. Webb's
speech simply confirmed what we've been saying for a very long time now.
It's not working, it never will.

Change is need. Now more that ever.

Control of access to the LL needs to be taken off Telecom and passed
to an organisation that is comitted to providing equal access to all,
at a fair rate, and with the main criteria for LL changes to be the
benefit that it provides those attached to the LL; the end customer
whether it be commercial or private must be the one that benefits
most.

[Matthew Bruce]

"providing equal access to all"
So presumably any organisation taking advantage of the requested LL
changes will be obliged to provide a service to Tuatapere, Twizel &
Taihape not just Trentham, Tauranga & Takanini?

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On
Behalf Of Gordon Milne
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 10:32 a.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Commerce commission / Telecom

Post by Juha Saarinen

Post by Paul Brislen
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into
wholesale and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which had
various people in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

And, I think it's important to point out that most of the "clueless
media" didn't ever buy into the notion of pseudo-unbundling. Webb's
speech simply confirmed what we've been saying for a very long time
now. It's not working, it never will.

Change is need. Now more that ever.

Control of access to the LL needs to be taken off Telecom and passed to
an organisation that is comitted to providing equal access to all, at a
fair rate, and with the main criteria for LL changes to be the benefit
that it provides those attached to the LL; the end customer whether it
be commercial or private must be the one that benefits most.
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[Gordon Milne]

Not quite sure if that is what I meant to say, but I can see what you mean.

Not really sure if Telecom is up to that anyway

Post by Matthew Bruce
"providing equal access to all"
So presumably any organisation taking advantage of the requested LL
changes will be obliged to provide a service to Tuatapere, Twizel &
Taihape not just Trentham, Tauranga & Takanini?
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Gordon Milne
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 10:32 a.m.
Subject: Re: Commerce commission / Telecom

Post by Juha Saarinen

Post by Paul Brislen
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into
wholesale and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which had
various people in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

And, I think it's important to point out that most of the "clueless
media" didn't ever buy into the notion of pseudo-unbundling. Webb's
speech simply confirmed what we've been saying for a very long time
now. It's not working, it never will.

Change is need. Now more that ever.
Control of access to the LL needs to be taken off Telecom and passed to
an organisation that is comitted to providing equal access to all, at a
fair rate, and with the main criteria for LL changes to be the benefit
that it provides those attached to the LL; the end customer whether it
be commercial or private must be the one that benefits most.
--
This message is part of the NZ ADSL mailing list.
see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
with "unsubscribe adsl" in the body of the message
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[Steve Phillips]

Post by Gordon Milne
Not quite sure if that is what I meant to say, but I can see what you mean.
Not really sure if Telecom is up to that anyway

funny, I thought they did that today, well, at least, I am pretty sure you
can goto remote locations and pick up a phone and get a dialtone which
would tend to indicate that the LL is maintained in remote locations such
as stuart island and the like.

Or are you trying ot tell us that the LL has already been unbundled and
as a result telecom are NOT maintaining it ?
--
Steve.

Post by Gordon Milne

Post by Matthew Bruce
"providing equal access to all"
So presumably any organisation taking advantage of the requested LL
changes will be obliged to provide a service to Tuatapere, Twizel &
Taihape not just Trentham, Tauranga & Takanini?

[ snippity goodness]

[Juha Saarinen]

Post by Gordon Milne
Not quite sure if that is what I meant to say, but I can see what you mean.
Not really sure if Telecom is up to that anyway

The TSO means other providers have to chip in and pay Telecom to provide
service to "unprofitable customers".

And please trim quotes, folks...

[Matthew Bruce]

I can't say for sure about Tuatapere & Taihape (two convenient small
towns beginning with "T") but I on a full speed connection here in
Temuka and have clients in Twizel, Oamarama & Lake Tekapo who are also
on a full speed connection. And just in case, Yes I do know that the
"full Speed" is simply the trained speed and no indication of the size
of the pipe between the Dslam & the core. The point is DSL is in these
small exchanges well away from a CBD or major tourist destination.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-***@unixathome.org [mailto:owner-***@unixathome.org] On
Behalf Of Gordon Milne
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 11:39 a.m.
To: ***@lists.unixathome.org
Subject: Re: Commerce commission / Telecom


Not quite sure if that is what I meant to say, but I can see what you
mean.

Not really sure if Telecom is up to that anyway

Post by Matthew Bruce
"providing equal access to all"
So presumably any organisation taking advantage of the requested LL
changes will be obliged to provide a service to Tuatapere, Twizel &
Taihape not just Trentham, Tauranga & Takanini?
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Gordon Milne
Sent: Tuesday, 28 June 2005 10:32 a.m.
Subject: Re: Commerce commission / Telecom

Post by Juha Saarinen

Post by Paul Brislen
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into
wholesale and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which had
various people in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

And, I think it's important to point out that most of the "clueless
media" didn't ever buy into the notion of pseudo-unbundling. Webb's
speech simply confirmed what we've been saying for a very long time
now. It's not working, it never will.

Change is need. Now more that ever.
Control of access to the LL needs to be taken off Telecom and passed
to an organisation that is comitted to providing equal access to all,
at a fair rate, and with the main criteria for LL changes to be the
benefit that it provides those attached to the LL; the end customer
whether it be commercial or private must be the one that benefits
most.
--
This message is part of the NZ ADSL mailing list.
see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
"unsubscribe adsl" in the body of the message
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
27/06/2005
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
27/06/2005
--
This message is part of the NZ ADSL mailing list.
see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
"unsubscribe adsl" in the body of the message

--
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see http://unixathome.org/adsl/ for archives, FAQ,
and various documents.
To unsubscribe: send mail to ***@lists.unixathome.org
with "unsubscribe adsl" in the body of the message
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[Juha Saarinen]

Post by Matthew Bruce
I can't say for sure about Tuatapere & Taihape (two convenient small
towns beginning with "T") but I on a full speed connection here in
Temuka and have clients in Twizel, Oamarama & Lake Tekapo who are also
on a full speed connection. And just in case, Yes I do know that the
"full Speed" is simply the trained speed and no indication of the size
of the pipe between the Dslam & the core. The point is DSL is in these
small exchanges well away from a CBD or major tourist destination.

<Redundant quoting snipped>

As I said earlier, Telecom is receiving money - substantial amounts -
from its telco competitors to provide that service.

It could also be argued that the protected monopoly it enjoys is in fact
a subsidy and which thus should include providing service in outlying areas.

Without TSO money and a protected monopoly to bolster coffers, it would
be unreasonable to expect a competitor to provide the same service as
the terms are clearly different.

[Simon Garner]

Post by Matthew Bruce
I can't say for sure about Tuatapere & Taihape (two convenient small
towns beginning with "T") but I on a full speed connection here in
Temuka and have clients in Twizel, Oamarama & Lake Tekapo who are also
on a full speed connection. And just in case, Yes I do know that the
"full Speed" is simply the trained speed and no indication of the size
of the pipe between the Dslam & the core. The point is DSL is in these
small exchanges well away from a CBD or major tourist destination.

Interesting that you can get it way out there, because I have family in
Hamilton and Rotorua, neither of whom can get DSL thanks to Telecom's
crap phone lines.

-Simon

[Steve Withers]

Post by Matthew Bruce
I can't say for sure about Tuatapere & Taihape (two convenient small
towns beginning with "T") but I on a full speed connection here in
Temuka and have clients in Twizel, Oamarama & Lake Tekapo who are also
on a full speed connection. And just in case, Yes I do know that the
"full Speed" is simply the trained speed and no indication of the size
of the pipe between the Dslam & the core. The point is DSL is in these
small exchanges well away from a CBD or major tourist destination.

Same here. I have great speed near Foxton......population: very small.

At the moment, I'm in a tiny almost-town called Mindemoya (pop: 800) on
Manitoulin Island in Lake Huron in Canada - the world's largest fresh
water island....and remote as far as most people would be concerned.

DSL is faster here than in NZ.....

Cheaper, too.

Steve .

[Brian Gibbons]

Post by Paul Brislen
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into
wholesale and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which
had various people in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

Well something has to to be done to change Telecom's attitute.

Saying that "Businesses that require more than 128kbps is a niche market"
tells the whole story of Telecom's attitude.

That is spin if I sever saw it.

If it is a niche market, then in a competitive market a supplier will meet
the needs of that market.

Only about 10%-20% of our full rate Jetstream users will be moving to UBS,
the remainder need a higher upload speed and are in no mans land right now.

Currently, their only choice is Telecom supplied bandwidth at 10c to 20c a
meg.

Yes it is a niche market, a very large one at that and Telecom have it all
to themselves.

Cheers

BG

[Jonathan Pickard]

Post by Paul Brislen
Basically Webb said "I'm not suggesting we break up Telecom into
wholesale and retail but look what they've done in the UK" which
had various people in the crowd raising eyebrows and looking stunned.

[snip]

Telecom is a commercial company that makes huge profits from a monopoly - no-one can realistically argue that Telecom is not a monopoly. As long as Telecom is a monopoly they will continue to run their bisuness to the benefit of their shareholders and not their customers.
The only effective way to make Telecom deliver change is to threaten them with nationalisation (like railtrack in the UK - but this had no discernable impact) or the threat of forced government break up ( like Bell in the US). The market in NZ is too small for that though.
The government need to force change in this area - but they are not prepared to battle with a large publicly listed company. It may send the wrong message to the investing public.

Basically Telecom will not change - change means reduced profits.

[Jonathan Pickard]

[ snip]

Post by Juha Saarinen
It could also be argued that the protected monopoly it enjoys is in fact
a subsidy and which thus should include providing service in outlying areas.
Without TSO money and a protected monopoly to bolster coffers, it would
be unreasonable to expect a competitor to provide the same service as
the terms are clearly different.

We as tax payers via the government are supporting this monopoly. "We" pay Telecom a subsidy to supply a service to all New Zealanders, this is clearly not happening. I think it is reasonable to expect a similar service to all New Zealand householders and that includes High Speed broadband (128k is not high speed broadband).

I would like to see the commissioner put a 5 year network and service development plan in place that Telecom need to commit to, the penalties of non compliance need to be severe enough to ensure that the plan is adhered to. This is not to much to expect.
Telecom provide a mission critical service that should be closely regulated by the government as there are no market forces in place to guide Telecom.

I do not think we need more competition, two monopolies in a market is far worse than one - we just need stricter rules for Telecom to abide by. Transparency is a good place to start

[Juha Saarinen]

Post by Jonathan Pickard
We as tax payers via the government are supporting this monopoly.
"We" pay Telecom a subsidy to supply a service to all New Zealanders,
this is clearly not happening. I think it is reasonable to expect a
similar service to all New Zealand householders and that includes
High Speed broadband (128k is not high speed broadband).

Yes, interesting enough, the 1 and 2M DSL plans (which are as the
commissioner says entry-level overseas) rate as broadband only in one
direction - not that I like the term "broadband" but anyway.

Post by Jonathan Pickard
I would like to see the commissioner put a 5 year network and service
development plan in place that Telecom need to commit to, the
penalties of non compliance need to be severe enough to ensure that
the plan is adhered to. This is not to much to expect. Telecom
provide a mission critical service that should be closely regulated
by the government as there are no market forces in place to guide
Telecom.

There is no provision under the current Telco Act to do any of the
above. No monitoring, no enforcement, nothing.

Post by Jonathan Pickard
I do not think we need more competition, two monopolies in a market
is far worse than one - we just need stricter rules for Telecom to
abide by. Transparency is a good place to start

Two 800lb gorillas dividing things between themselves you mean? Bit like
Vodafone and Telecom in the mobile market.

[Craig Humphrey]

Post by Matthew Bruce
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:16 PM
To: Jonathan Pickard
Subject: Re: Commerce commission / Telecom

[snip snip]

Post by Matthew Bruce
Two 800lb gorillas dividing things between themselves you
mean? Bit like Vodafone and Telecom in the mobile market.

I could be wrong, but didn't Telecom build their first cellular network,
after it was privatised? Which technically means it wasn't
Government/Taxpayer funded, which means that even though it's a duopoly,
it's not like it's a (directly) taxpayer funded one.

Still, personally I think the Vodafone vs Telecom Mobile situation is
light-years ahead of any other toe-to-toe clashes with Telecom, even if
we're still paying too much, at least prices are coming down and services
are going up (even if you need to be a 7 year-old to appreciate them...)

Just my 2c (nothing at all to do with my employer), I need a beer and it's
not even Friday...

[Joel Wiramu Pauling]

Post by Jonathan Pickard
[ snip]

One thing I don't understand is why telecom is so hesitant to say
introduce a 350kps upstream plan in this segment. If we go buy there
"lack of demand" segment surely providing such a plan wouldn't hurt them
financially. (Going by there argument).

[Steve Phillips]

Costs to change equipment and configurations ?

Changes to plans and the like are not free - I know when working at Asia
Online (remarkably small when compared to telecom) it cost around $50k (I
think that was NZD but may have been USD) or there abouts to implement a
new product (or plan in this case) in the backend vantive database.

I would be guessing that Telecom would have a lot more than a single
system to change when implementing a new plan so if the plan never takes
off then its a sizeable ammount of dosh to throw away.
--
Steve.

Post by Joel Wiramu Pauling

Post by Jonathan Pickard
[ snip]

One thing I don't understand is why telecom is so hesitant to say
introduce a 350kps upstream plan in this segment. If we go buy there
"lack of demand" segment surely providing such a plan wouldn't hurt them
financially. (Going by there argument).