Discussion:
Draft determination on TelstraClear's application for UBS out
Juha Saarinen
2005-04-21 09:06:27 UTC
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My story here:

http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/8C0FDF36F072456BCC256FEA002CC06B

Full draft determination here:
[Long URL warning]

http://www.comcom.govt.nz/IndustryRegulation/Telecommunications/Wholesale/WholesaleDeterminatons/telstraclearwholesalebitstreamserviceap.aspx
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Juha
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Paul Warner
2005-04-21 20:35:02 UTC
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To me it still looks like the same old crap as before. TelstraClear
resells Telecom dial tone in the guise of a TelstraClear dial tone. Now
they sell the same old ADSL from Telecom with a different label of
TelstraClear. No doubt the same limitations and same high price.
The only thing that will for this sort of crap out is full LLU but I can't
see this happening this side of the 22 Century.

Quote
"Similarly, Telecommunications Users Association of New Zealand head Ernie
Newman is dancing a jig over the draft determination. Newman lauds it as a
"breakthrough for residential and smaller business broadband users" and
believes it will enable TelstraClear to enhance Telecom's services rather
than just reselling them at a small margin."

This guy is very easily pleazed it would appear..
Post by Juha Saarinen
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/8C0FDF36F072456BCC256FEA002CC06B
[Long URL warning]
http://www.comcom.govt.nz/IndustryRegulation/Telecommunications/Wholesale/WholesaleDeterminatons/telstraclearwholesalebitstreamserviceap.aspx
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Juha
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Paul Warner

***@bigfoot.com
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Gordon Milne
2005-04-21 21:39:41 UTC
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Gordon Milne <***@gmail.com>
Date: Apr 22, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Draft determination on TelstraClear's application for UBS out
To: Paul Warner <***@bigfoot.com>


Well, I think it looks different to what went before.

The determination talks of access to the full bandwith of the DSLAMs
and not Telecom's rate limited access.

It compares the pricing for residential and business use of ADSL and
asks the question why the cost to a business is so much higher. Our
monthly ADSL bill is several hundreds of dollars a months compared to
my 2M/128k/10G plan at home. Yes, its 2M up and down but, even so, it
is more than 10 times the price of my residential plan. That does
seems excessive and symptomatic of a 'clipping the ticket' approach
taken by Telecom.

I would back full LLU but that would require the control of the LL to
be remoived from Telecom and given to some third-party who is charged
with providing open access to all. I would find it hard to trust
Telecom with this. In any event, Telecom know little of what their
technology does, they just want o send people bits of paper demanding
money. In many ways, life would be easier for them if they became a
'billing' organisation with no fixed assets of thir own.

TelstraClear is hardly the white knight in this affair either. In
Australia, they act just like Telecom does here and take every
opportunity to drag their feet.

I have only skimmed the draft determination but I did see mention of
the 'churn' fee. If anything is going to hold back migration of
customers from one supplier to the next, it is a high churn fee. It
needs to get down to $25 for it to become 'easy' for people to change
supplier. And, with a high degree of electronic automation in
exchanges these days, it does not seem unreasonable that switch a
customer from one ISP to another should be little more than issuing an
electronic instruction to do so. If it takes more than that, or worse
still, requires physical human intervention, then the churn fee will
remain high and a vibrant ADSL market will not come into existence.
Post by Paul Warner
To me it still looks like the same old crap as before. TelstraClear
resells Telecom dial tone in the guise of a TelstraClear dial tone. Now
they sell the same old ADSL from Telecom with a different label of
TelstraClear. No doubt the same limitations and same high price.
The only thing that will for this sort of crap out is full LLU but I can't
see this happening this side of the 22 Century.
Quote
"Similarly, Telecommunications Users Association of New Zealand head Ernie
Newman is dancing a jig over the draft determination. Newman lauds it as a
"breakthrough for residential and smaller business broadband users" and
believes it will enable TelstraClear to enhance Telecom's services rather
than just reselling them at a small margin."
This guy is very easily pleazed it would appear..
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Craig Humphrey
2005-04-21 21:37:49 UTC
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Personally I think it's a step in the right direction (similar to the Aussie
model?).
I can see a few issues though:
1. It's limited (at this stage) to TelstraClear (so we have duopoly instead
of monopoly).
2. While I don't fully understand the terminology for the pricing, they
seem to be setting the initial wholesale price, but don't provide guidelines
on future pricing. Presumably Telecom's costs go down over time, so the
wholesale price should follow. I could be wrong on this, too much
legal-speak.
3. It's all tied to 128Kbit/s upstream, which the computer world article
points out, isn't sufficient to support more than 4Mbit/s downstream.

I think the Australian model is based on Telstra (or the owner of the
particular exchange/DSLAM?) "selling"/"leasing" a port on the exchange
(which seems to include the last mile copper too) to the ISP, who then uses
it for what ever services the customer has purchased (ADSL/voice). Which
leaves bit rates completely open and up to the contract between customer and
ISP. I have no idea how they handle the data between the exchange and the
ISP, presumably that's a separate wholesale agreement, and also regulated to
be "fair".

Just my (personal) 2c.

I wonder if Telecom will turn of the interleaving for it's existing
customers? It's killing me...
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: Draft determination on TelstraClear's
application for UBS out
To me it still looks like the same old crap as before.
TelstraClear resells Telecom dial tone in the guise of a
TelstraClear dial tone. Now they sell the same old ADSL from
Telecom with a different label of TelstraClear. No doubt the
same limitations and same high price.
The only thing that will for this sort of crap out is full
LLU but I can't see this happening this side of the 22 Century.
Quote
"Similarly, Telecommunications Users Association of New
Zealand head Ernie Newman is dancing a jig over the draft
determination. Newman lauds it as a "breakthrough for
residential and smaller business broadband users" and
believes it will enable TelstraClear to enhance Telecom's
services rather than just reselling them at a small margin."
This guy is very easily pleazed it would appear..
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Brian Gibbons
2005-04-21 21:25:36 UTC
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Subject: Draft determination on TelstraClear's application for UBS out
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/UNID/8C0FDF36F072456BCC256FEA002CC06B
Thanks for that Juha.

There is a lot of reading in the draft determination, looks like a long
weekend job.

I can't understand the 128kbps upstream thing, it is bizzare.

A lot of existing business Jetstream customers could not use a DSL
connection that was rate limited to 128kbps upstream.
They have Intranets, Web/email servers behind Jetstream that would choke at
this speed.

What will happen to these existing full rate users?
From the determination
Telecom is required to supply TelstraClear with bitstream access with no
material
difference between the network-based characteristics supplied to
TelstraClear
and bitstream used by Telecom to supply its own retail services;
Therefore if Telecom continues to supply full rate Jetstream then they will
also have to wholesale this to TelstraClear.

Have you asked Telecom if they are going to continue supplying full rate
Jetstream to business?

I would love an answer to that one.

Cheers

BG
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Juha Saarinen
2005-04-21 22:08:06 UTC
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Post by Brian Gibbons
Thanks for that Juha.
:)
Post by Brian Gibbons
There is a lot of reading in the draft determination, looks like a long
weekend job.
Yeah, it's very detailed but that's because TCL's application was as well.
Post by Brian Gibbons
I can't understand the 128kbps upstream thing, it is bizzare.
A lot of existing business Jetstream customers could not use a DSL
connection that was rate limited to 128kbps upstream.
They have Intranets, Web/email servers behind Jetstream that would choke at
this speed.
Just try sharing such a connection, and you're pretty much stuffed.
Post by Brian Gibbons
What will happen to these existing full rate users?
Full-rate is only available under the Jetstream Partnering Programme
(JSPP) and that's going away in August. My story on that will be in next
week's Computerworld, which is now available at the newstands again.

After August, full-rate Jetstream will only be available from Xtra,
under the Venture product name. ISPs will full-rate customers are
expected to migrate them before end of August, or the customers will be
turned off.
Post by Brian Gibbons
From the determination
Telecom is required to supply TelstraClear with bitstream access with no
material
difference between the network-based characteristics supplied to
TelstraClear
and bitstream used by Telecom to supply its own retail services;
Therefore if Telecom continues to supply full rate Jetstream then they will
also have to wholesale this to TelstraClear.
Have you asked Telecom if they are going to continue supplying full rate
Jetstream to business?
I would love an answer to that one.
Yes, see above, but as you point out, the new draft determination may
change things considerably.

Note that it's a *draft* only, and things may change from here to the
final version. When the ComCom says that interested parties should
contact them with submissions, heed it. ISPs should submit comments
especially on the technical issues as soon as possible. The law doesn't
allow for the regulator to do anything by itself -- the access seekers
have to ask the ComCom to act as a referee.
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Brian Gibbons
2005-04-22 00:34:27 UTC
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Post by Juha Saarinen
After August, full-rate Jetstream will only be available from Xtra,
under the Venture product name. ISPs will full-rate customers are
expected to migrate them before end of August, or the customers will be
turned off.
Migrate them to what? Xtra? UBS?

What you are saying above is that Xtra (Telecom) will have a retail DSL
product that is not available to wholesalers.

Correct?

Cheers

BG
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Phil
2005-04-24 12:48:36 UTC
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Post by Juha Saarinen
expected to migrate them before end of August, or the customers will be
turned off.
Meh. They said that about JetStream Starter (aka. JetStart) as well.

-Phil
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LEE Tet Yoon
2005-04-25 04:15:30 UTC
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Post by Phil
Post by Juha Saarinen
expected to migrate them before end of August, or the customers will be
turned off.
Meh. They said that about JetStream Starter (aka. JetStart) as well.
-Phil
So your still using Jetstream Starter?
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Phil
2005-04-27 00:41:58 UTC
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Post by LEE Tet Yoon
Post by Phil
Post by Juha Saarinen
expected to migrate them before end of August, or the customers will be
turned off.
Meh. They said that about JetStream Starter (aka. JetStart) as well.
-Phil
So your still using Jetstream Starter?
Alive and kicking -
<http://partylemon.com/archives/08/1728.html>

-Phil
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Regan Murphy
2005-04-21 22:12:52 UTC
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Post by Brian Gibbons
I can't understand the 128kbps upstream thing, it is bizzare.
A lot of existing business Jetstream customers could not use a DSL
connection that was rate limited to 128kbps upstream.
They have Intranets, Web/email servers behind Jetstream that would choke
at this speed.

There, you have answered your own question ;)

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